Nikolai Kolesnik is now chairman at the Presidium of Russian Inter-regional public organization of Vietnam War veterans.
In that already distant époque, in the middle of 1960’s, he was sergeant of anti-aircraft defense (AAD) in the Soviet Army. From July 1965 till June 1966 he and his companions-in-arms had taken part in the repulse of massed US airstrikes against Northern Vietnam.
– How did you get to the army and why directly to AAD? Where the AAD specialists were prepared?
– I got to army in the same way as many other Soviet guys of my age did – by conscription. Though, I had a year-long postponement (which I did not ask) due to private affairs. As a result, I was sent to boot-camp, where I spent 9 months, after which I was allocated to a regiment based not far from Moscow.
– When and how did you reveal that you were going to Vietnam? Was this journey formally voluntary, but actually obligatory? What was the purpose of sending enlisted soldiers there and what was their percentage among Soviet military personnel in Vietnam?
– We got to know about our deployment from our battery’s first sergeant. He heard from someone an order, according to which we had to arrive to the regiment and informed that we would apparently go to Vietnam. This was the way the reliable soldier’s word-of-mouth “telegraph” used to work at that time…
As I got to know much later from our battalion commander major of the Guards Ivan Proskurin, he was ordered to pick out enlisted soldiers and sergeants for this mission. And would any commander let his best guys to be sent away? So he decided to pick out firstly from his best men. Regiment commander colonel Anton Pobozhakov declared that we are offered to go on a mission to a country “with hot tropical climate”. Almost all of us signed in. Those who did not want to go due to any reason eventually did not go. For instance, at monthly exercises before the mission few people decided to go AWOL purposely. As a result, they were immediately dismissed from our group and sent back to their units.
Our main task was to train Vietnamese gun crews. Consequently, in first groups of military experts sent to Vietnam 70 % of personnel were enlisted, and the rest were officers. The same correlation was kept in the staff of Soviet combat units of AAD forces of peace time. For example, crew of a launcher of S-75 SAM system consisted exclusively of enlisted soldiers and sergeants.
At that time in Vietnam it was a period when there were no officers in the launching battery of our battalion. Nevertheless, our soldiers and sergeants coped with it… Later, after 1967, correlation had changed a bit: amount of officers grew till 60%.
– How did you get to the destination? What was the most amazing thing for you to meet? Where exactly did you have to fight?
– We got to Hanoi by plane, having landings in Irkutsk and Peking (Beijing). We had an unplanned landing in Chinese city of Changsha, too. Hanoi was under an airstrike, so we had to wait in China until it was finished. You know, everything was amazing: nature, people, climate and first bombing we had to go through, and the violent heat…
We had to fight in different places. However, first anti-aircraft battalions were covering Hanoi, Hai Phong harbor and other large industrial and transport centers. After each fight we were moved to deploy in a new dislocation.
– When did you realize that there could be real hostilities?
– Back in Moscow we were informed that we will simply train and prepare Vietnamese crews. The fact that we will train them directly in firing positions came out only in Vietnam. This is understandable, though, in the difficult situation of those times, having severe everyday airstrikes. Our Vietnamese comrades had neither time nor possibility to postpone deployment of missile systems in firing positions. Massed airstrikes and bombings of US air forces made great harm to the country. People died, whole cities were destroyed. Therefore, further training and combat coordination of Vietnamese gun crews was to be done directly in firing positions. We just had to help them, to learn the language and at the same time to be able to work with crews successfully, especially during the fighting. Surely, I did not learn the language to a fluent level, but I grasped main commands and terms quickly. Vietnamese also started to understand key commands in Russian.
– How do you evaluate your enemy, his actions and level of preparation, reconnaissance etc.? Were there cases of bombings of missile positions, any attempts of diversions or capture?
– I may say our enemy was experienced and well-prepared. Americans were changing their tactics rapidly; they also started using actively different kinds of noises, “Shrike” missiles. It was permanent fighting with adequate response to each step of the counterpart.
There were cases of bombing positions, but not in our 61st battalion: usually we left positions at once after launching missiles. We were beating records of time of dislodging of a missile battalion. And we were not able to act in a different way: Americans immediately bombed identified launching positions.
But there were no attempts to capture neither our combat materiel nor servicemen. Though, there was an attempt of rather sabotage than diversion… In one battalion missiles could not be launched after the “start” command. We began looking for a reason and it came out that connectors of the starter motor of the missiles were disengaged. You know, Vietnamese counter-intelligence is quite a tough organization, so very quickly they uncovered whose work it was. There were no such cases anymore since then.
– Did you see pilots of planes brought down by yourself, or there were only rumors about it?
– I did not see them myself. And our presence in Vietnam was never flaunted. It will be enough to say that during the entire mission we were clad in civilian clothes, did not carry any personal weapon - and even documents, that were kept in our embassy. That’s why no one showed to our military men American pilots we downed. And our experts were not showed to Americans, too. What for? We ourselves saw changes in tactics and battle employment of enemy air forces, and the rest of information was provided by the Vietnamese through our officers. We learned by our own, taking part in battle, perceiving all the new countermeasures of US air forces.
– Did pilots from Southern Vietnam take part in airstrikes?
– We got to know that there were Australian, South Korean, Thai, etc. pilots fighting on the side of USA. But I haven’t heard about Southern Vietnam pilots taking part in airstrikes in Northern Vietnam. By the way, as far as I know, there were only Americans among the downed pilots.
– What was the difference between living conditions of Soviet soldiers, soldiers of Northern Vietnam and Soviet officers? What was the most difficult thing for a soldier (climate, diseases, being away from home, etc.)?
– All of us were in same conditions and endured same hardships and asperities. Our way of life had actually no differences. Officers lived in separate premises, but of a same type, whether it was a building of bricks, bamboo hut or customary tent. We were eating literally from the same pot. The main difficulties were violent heat and high humidity. Kidneys of some fellow soldiers were not able to stand it, although earlier these guys were considered being quite healthy.
Another hard thing was filling up missiles with oxidizer. Just imagine: + 35 C (95 F) heat and you have to put on protective suit made of hard cloth and trimmed with rubberized fabric on the front, high rubber boots, gas mask and rubberized hood, rubber gloves. You turn vents, wrenches, work with hoses wearing such suit at list for 40 minutes. Moreover, oxidizer is extremely toxic. When you finish the job and take this suit off you feel you’ve lose almost a kilo of your weight. And all your body is itching as if you were scalded with nettle.
– In a number of sources it is written that you bore responsibility of commander of a launching platoon, i.e. you substituted officer during fights. What was it connected to?
– It was just because of the lack of our experts. We insured the deployment of 1st and then 3rd Vietnamese anti-aircraft regiments with reduced gun crews of peace-time. So at the very beginning each of us had to train several Vietnamese gun crews. Certainly, it was not so easy for Vietnamese anti-aircraft gunners at the beginning, too. It was complicated for them even physically to do their duties, as a huge working load rests on each member of a gun crew during battle. There were needed two Vietnamese to move a lever which each of us, Soviet, could handle alone. This was because they were not so tall and their food was not very nutritious – it was war.
– What is your evaluation of effectiveness of Soviet combat materiel and AAD as a whole? This is not a secret that all what was done by anti-aircraft gunners led only to small losses among the US air forces, which had practiced massed airstrikes using dozens and hundreds of planes?
– I consider Soviet AAD materiel being the best in the world at that time. And this is not just words. I saw results of our job myself.
Even nowadays many people are not able to understand the importance of AAD in ending that war. When you say, that if we used S-125 systems earlier the war would end much earlier, people wonder. Although, before we came, American bombers had been flying at the height of 3000-5000 meters and descended only when coming closer to the target, so the anti-aircraft artillery of Vietnamese army could not get them. After having recovered from the first shock, which was caused by us using S-75, they began to fly closer to the ground at the height of 50-200 meters. But this led them becoming more vulnerable to anti-aircraft artillery mounts and machine guns, especially paired and double-paired machine guns. Effectiveness of them increased evidently.
Now about small losses of Americans. It is true that they were small indeed at the very beginning, because there were not many anti-aircraft battalions, and missiles were not enough, too. But number of artillery mounts, as well as number of trained soldiers and officers of anti-aircraft troops of the army of Vietnam, grew gradually. Losses of US air forces also increased. And we forced them to change their tactics using only few our battalions.
No doubt, American military men were eager to eliminate the resistance, to “bomb Vietnam straight to the Stone Age”. That is why they were regularly bombing the “Ho Chi Minh trail” and towns of Northern Vietnam. However, flying high over defenseless towns is one thing, and realizing that you may not come back from a mission is absolutely different. It is worth to mention, that after we had had first victories, American military pilots began to refuse going bombing the territory of Northern Vietnam. Their headquarters had to take urgent measures, including rising fee for each sortie and replacing flying personnel on aircraft carriers.
– What is your battle score? Could you tell me any battle episodes? In what way was the counting of downed planes made and how they were “divided” between air defense missile crewmen and Vietnamese anti-aircraft gunners?
– During fights, in which I took part personally, “my” battalions of 1st and 3rd Vietnamese anti-aircraft regiments brought down 15 enemy planes. Counting was made in various ways, but almost always we saw results of our job. What I remember the best, obviously, is my first fight.
Those who opened the battle score were not us, but battalions under command of majors Boris Mozhayev and Fyodor Il’ynikh (their backup men were captains Nguyen Vang Thang and Nguyen Vang Ning). They brought down 3 American fighters near Hanoi on July 24, 1965. Our first fight happened late at night on August 11, 1965 near Zashong village in the province Ninh Binh. I remember it well, because 18 (!) times per day we took our places in the firing position, situated 8 km away from the city of Fuli. All the time – in vain. We were totally exhausted. As a result, when we were woken up by the alarm signal, Vietnamese gun crew was half asleep and they could not find an exit from the tent. But we still managed to remove the cover from the launching missile and watched the explosion of downed planes. In the end of the fight it revealed that 4 enemy planes were brought down with 3 missiles.
This was the first fight also for our 61st battalion of anti-aircraft troops of army of Vietnam, which later was the first to get the rank of “Heroic”.
– What was the reason you were conferred with such a high order (as it is known, not many officers were conferred with the Order of the Red Banner)? What other decorations did you receive?
– I retired being conferred with the Order of the Red Banner, Vietnamese medal of Friendship and medal “20 years of victory in the Great Patriotic War” (GPW – term used in Russia and some other states of the former Soviet Union to describe the portion of World War II from June 22, 1941, to May 9, 1945, against Nazi Germany and its allies in the Eastern Front – translator’s remark). Obviously, I was conferred for the total combination of fights and for high results of launching batteries of 1st and 3rd anti-aircraft regiments, prepared for battle tasks by us. On the whole, logic of decorating is sometimes hard to understand: for example, my commander of battalion Ivan Proskurin had only the Order of the Red Star. And he also got his rank of lieutenant-colonel before term.
After returning from Vietnam he became the commander of our regiment. But there were also other soldiers, decorated with the Order of the Red Banner: Junior Sergeant (~corporal – transl.) Anatoly Bondarenko and Sergeant Arseniy Durkin. Moreover, six officers were also decorated. Others were conferred with orders of the Red Star and medals for Valor and for Combat Service.
– It is written quite often, that despite the large-scale deliveries of materiel and armament, it was rather difficult for Soviet military men to work. Vietnamese had strong pro-Chinese sentiments; it was hard to get information and samples of captured materiel and weaponry. How much truth is in such opinion?
– I did not notice such a phenomenon. Although, certain Vietnamese had such sentiments at first. They used to say that Chinese comrades deliver the latest fighters MiG-17 whereas Soviet – outdated missile systems S-75. Once before a battle a Vietnamese interpreter even took liberties with expressing his doubts, whether our missiles would hit a target. And when we downed four planes using three missiles, he was asked: “Did the lyengso (Soviet) bring good missiles?” He humbly apologized for being wrong. In this way all the talks ended. I only would like to stress that in 1965-66 Soviet – Chinese relationships were not as strained as later. We flew to Vietnam and returned home via China, where we were welcomed.
– How many Soviet military experts (SME) took part in the Vietnam War? Did representatives of other arms of the service take part in rendering assistance to the People’s Army of Vietnam? You as the Chairman of public organization of Vietnam veterans should know an approximate number.
– Yes, they did. Except experts of AAD, there were experts of radio-technical troops, artillerymen, signalers, armor crewmen, motorists, medics, experts of radio reconnaissance, military-scientific and military-industrial groups and crews of reconnaissance ships of the Pacific Fleet. There was a small group of instructors of MiG-21 pilots. The total number of them was not so large – 90% of SME Group in Vietnam consisted of AAD experts. In total, 11 thousand Soviet servicemen took part in the Vietnam War: 6.5 thousand officers and about 4.5 thousand of enlisted.
– Mass-media, with a great help of “Rambo” blockbuster’s author, who escaped Vietnam War in Europe, is overflowed with fantasies about dozens and hundreds of Soviet paratroopers and commandos overwhelming the jungle. In profile forums certain people affirm, quote some “sources” as authority, saying that Soviet enlisted paratroopers and marines took part in battles in South Vietnam. How may you comment it?
– “Rambo” is a tale with a distinct flavor of propaganda and desire to win on the screen the war they lost in real life. No wonder the movie was shot by a fantasist, who escaped participation in that war. I may enumerate bloopers of that film for a long time, but here are the few facts.
A) Our organization of Vietnam veterans has not recorded any cases, when Soviet paratroopers or marines took part in battles in Vietnam. And we possess a great database on Soviet assistance in Vietnam at that time. To study samples of battle materiel and equipment, new armament, captured during battle or taken from downed planes was the job of technical reconnaissance (military-scientific group). Experts of radio reconnaissance were solving their own problems. There was no necessity to send any Soviet “special groups”/
B) What could our “tough” experts teach Vietnamese? How to fight in the jungle? By then they had been fighting for 25 years continuously against Japanese, French and Americans in turn. Or hand-to-hand fight? They had been developing their martial arts for hundreds of years.
C) Work of intelligence provided us with extremely useful information. Their bombers were just taking off from the base on the island of Guam when the Vietnamese HQ and our commanders already knew how many of them were coming, where and which way they were going. At that very moment Vietnamese AAD were ready to meet the “sweethearts”.
D) There were training centers in USSR and Northern Vietnam. Surely, there were military instructors from USSR, who were helping to master modern battle materiel and weaponry. But they were never capering through the jungle wearing odd uniform with Soviet epaulets and “Kalashnikovs” at the ready. We, anti-aircraft gunners, as I have mentioned previously, were wearing only civilian clothes. Even officers had no personal weapons. And we were at the territory of Northern Vietnam, which was an independent country, and we came by a request of its legitimate government.
– What is your evaluation of soldiers and officers of Northern Vietnam?
– Rather high. Despite the frankly insufficient supplies, poor nutrition and wrecked economy, soldiers and officers of the People’s Army of Vietnam were true patriots and knew what they were fighting for. Battle spirit and firmness of Vietnamese soldiers were outstanding. They trained and fought selflessly. I am proud that we were helping their country to become independent.
By the way, the Vietnamese were conferred not very often at that time. The war was just flaring up; there were a few victories and the same number of awards. But they were fighting not for getting decorations, but for Freedom and independence of Vietnam.
– What do you remember best about attitudes of ordinary Vietnamese people?
– When we downed four planes with three missiles during the first fight, almost half of the province came to congratulate us that night. All the people treated us kindly – elder people and children, literally everyone. Although, once we, three “suspicious” Europeans clad in civilian, were captured near the launching position by local militia, armed with lances. It came out that they were trying to catch a catapulted crew of an American plane. But when we told we were “lyengso”, it relieved the tension. The fact that there were three of us also helped, as the crew of the American plane consisted of two pilots. Finally, we contacted the nearest post of Vietnamese army and everything was clarified.
What I remember the best were, certainly, soldiers of the crews we had been fighting and carrying our duties together with. And Vietnamese girls – that is natural for a young sergeant. Though, none of us took any liberties – there was no time for it.
– What happened to you and your enlisted comrades after the mission ended? Were you given holidays, demobilization before term or you just returned to your units to complete the term of your service?
– Some of my comrades left Vietnam earlier, because the term of their three-year long service came to the end. Returning to the Soviet Union I got to the hospital due to health problems. When we were in Vietnam me and some of the soldiers were taken to the hospital for 17 days having the diagnosis “amoebic dysentery”. As a result, my weight at the moment of leaving the hospital was only 49 kilo while I was 177 cm tall… Before going to Vietnam I was given 10 days’ long holidays, which I did not use. After Vietnam all of us got extra 20 days of holidays, so I went to my native town of Gorlovka for 30 days. But I did not make to enjoy all the time given – I was called to the unit because I was chosen as a delegate to the XV Congress of Komsomol. I ended my service when my 3-years term was over.
– In what ways was the safety of secrecy secured? Specifically, were there many soldiers and sergeants conferred? Were you allowed to wear decorations, when and in what way were they awarded and how did you explain them to the outsiders? Did at least your parents know where and how your military decorations were gained?
– There were no special measures of secrecy connected exactly to decorations. All servicemen of our group – soldiers as well as officers were conferred. The first part was decorated on the occasion of November 7, 1965 (Revolution’s Day) and the second – right before the New Year 1966. It was, as we were told, the first time when Soviet soldiers were conferred abroad after the Great Patriotic War ended. Some of my companions in arms got medals, other got orders.
When people in Moscow saw my awards and asked where they are from, I usually answered “From there…” or “From a country with hot climate”. Elder men, almost all having experienced the war, shook my hand knowingly and asked no questions anymore. But it happened only few times, when I took part in organization of the Congress of the Komsomol and came to Moscow from the regiment wearing full uniform. I went on holidays wearing civilian, immediately after leaving the hospital. Of course, I told about it to my mother. And I had to share my battle experience more than once at the regiment and other units of Moscow AAD district. No one was trying to conceal our existence, and it was impossible, you know – other soldiers and officers returned from Vietnam to their units before and after us. You know, there was no possibility to have such an interview at all, as we are having with you now!
– Have you had a possibility to meet American Vietnam veterans? What was their attitude to you and your companions-in-arms?
– Yes, we met them here in Moscow several times. They were mainly marines and helicopter pilots. And it cannot be compared to communication with our Vietnamese companions-in-arms (laughs).
I have met only one pilot, who took part in airstrikes in Northern Vietnam – [ex] US presidential candidate Senator John McCain. It is worth mentioning that he was brought down in an airstrike to Hanoi and captured. When we met he was the head of prisoners of war search committee. We should pay tribute to the Americans: they pay a lot of attention to this problem.
McCain himself stuck my memory because of his imposing arrogance towards our war veterans, invited by his request. The only thing he was interested in – rumors about captured American pilots that were supposed to be still kept in Russia. We gave our facts that there was no sense to bring downed pilots out to the USSR against their will. Acting in that way was too risky when the opposition of our super-states was ongoing. All that was needed, I mean information concerning new materiel and its battle use, we could get from pilots back in Northern Vietnam without unnecessary complications.
Another situation was when any of the US servicemen deserted (people of that kind came to us through Europe) or simply decided to move to the Soviet Union, this is their right of “free democracy”.
– You visited Vietnam again in the new century, when forty years had passed. What is the attitude of Vietnamese youth to that war and your part in it?
– Older generations treat us kindly. There was a common euphoria, rise of national pride and patriotism after the unification of the country and defeat of the powerful enemy. Memories about our assistance in battle materiel and experts were not at the first place of importance at such a bright moment. And we may understand it. Moreover, we were more well-known in the North where our missile systems and artillery mounts were situated.
Now, after the breakdown of the USSR, Vietnamese realized they have lost the most powerful and reliable ally. This is why young and more pragmatic generation showed interest in those fights and details of that war. And young servicemen of anti-aircraft defense show absolute respect.
– Now, forty years later, in what way you may evaluate your participation in those fights and formation of AAD of Vietnamese army?.
– As for me, those battles remain to be the brightest events of my life. I and my Soviet and Vietnamese companions-in-arms took part in historical events, literally, forged victory. It is nobly to help people in trouble. I have always been proud that I was helping the people of Vietnam in fight for independence and took part in formation of anti-aircraft troops of Vietnam. And my point of view has remained the same for the past forty years.